On Friday, our own Tom Ziller used statistical analysis to declare that LeBron James is a better player than Kobe Bryant. Although I loved the read and the analysis, I must disagree with Ziller's final conclusion. The metric for Ziller's well-written stat-based conclusion was a comparison of Kobe and LeBron's PER throughout their careers. John Hollinger's PER (Player Efficiency Rating) tries to statistically rank the best players in the NBA. I have to say it probably does a better job of it than any other statistical measure out there.
Just look at the top five players in PER this season and you'll likely agree. Any statistical measurement that didn't have LeBron James, Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, Dwight Howard and Kobe Bryant close to the top would be irrelevant, and PER definitely avoids that pothole. If you follow the PER metric alone, LeBron is probably playing better than any player in the modern era right now. But utilizing PER alone to compare and contrast players might not always be the best decision.
First of all, PER is weighted in favor of players who have games predicated on scoring closer to the basket and playing in the paint. The rebound rate for someone that defends the low post, plays in the low post or does most of their dirty work getting to the rim is going to be a bit higher than someone that spends most of their time out on the perimeter. Same could be said for field goal percentages, as those that get to the rim or play close to the rim are going to be higher than those that play around the perimeter.
Proof of this comes from the fact that the top 100 individual season PERs in the history of the NBA are dominated by the greatest Centers and Power Forwards in the history of the game. The only non power position players in the top 100 are Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, Magic Johnson, Tracy McGrady, Larry Bird and Oscar Robertson. Those non power position players only combine for 28 of the top 100 single season PERs. Of course, Michael Jordan owns nine of those 28 slots. So basically, if you exclude the real G.O.A.T. (Jordan), there are only 19 seasons where non power position players have had PERs at or above 26 (The PER level needed to enter the top 100).
If you look at the all-time career PERs you'll see more proof of the power player favoritism as a guy like Elton Brand has a better PER than Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, etc.
LeBron plays small forward, has guard skills, and has a power forward's body. He spends most of his time abusing people on drives to the basket. Kobe Bryant has a prototypical shooting guards game and a prototypical shooting guards body. He spends most of his time launching butter soft jumpers from the perimeter. Those differences ring true in their respective PERs. LeBron in build and skill set is closer to the typical PER great than Kobe. Yet LeBron's career PER is not substantially better than Kobe's (25.72 to 23.63).
What's that you say? Kobe has had more years in the league as a fully formed ball player than LeBron? LeBron's career PER will become greater as the years go by, while Kobe's will likely fall? Okay. That may indeed be true. However, let's not forget that Kobe and LeBron had almost polar opposite experiences when they entered the league.
Kobe Bryant came into the league on a stacked team. His first year in the league he hardly got off the pine. And in his second year in the league he was asked to be a sixth man. LeBron was given the opportunity to be the man from the jump. Kobe didn't really get a chance to be the man until his ninth year in the league.
Out of the top 25 all-time career PER leaders, Kobe Bryant might be the only player that has spent the majority of his career as a second fiddle. I wonder what Kobe Bryant's PER would have been from 2001-2004 if he would have been allowed to be the man. LeBron at 24 is playing under an entire different set of circumstances than Kobe at that age. During that time -- even when he was on the verge of having historic outbursts -- Phil Jackson would mute Kobe almost to say: "know your role on this team". There are several occasions during those years where Kobe was close to scoring above 60 points only to have Phil Jackson sit him for nearly the entire fourth quarter. I'm talking Memphis in 2002 and Washington in 2003. How many players have reached 50 points by the third quarter and then been asked to sit for the rest of the game? That's the kind of leash Phil had on Kobe during those days. But who knows what Kobe could have produced during that time if he was allowed to go full blast the way LeBron always has been allowed to throughout his career. I mean, we got glimpses of Kobe's potential to destroy the entire league at points during that time (40+ points in nine straight games in 2003), but for the most part he was asked to fall back. Yet he still has one of the top 15 all-time career PERs.
People love to say that Kobe's production during Phil Jackson's first stint with the Lakers was a direct benefit of Shaquille O'neal's dominance. However that's just not the case. In fact, there has never been a second fiddle in the history of the NBA to produce the way Kobe did during his years behind Shaq. The player that came closest to the role Kobe played during his years as Shaq's second fiddle was Scottie Pippen. Kobe's PER in his second fiddle years absolutely destroys Pippen's second fiddle PER. Kobe's PERs during his second fiddle years under Phil Jackson (1999-00 to 2003-04) were: 21.7, 24.5, 23.2, 26.2, and 23.7. Pippen's PER during his second fiddle years under Phil Jackson (1989-90 to 1992-93 and 1995-96 to 1997-98) were: 16.3, 20.6, 21.5, 19.2, 21.0, 21.3, and 20.4. Kobe's worst year in his second fiddle role was better than Pippen's best as Michael Jordan's sidekick. During Pippen's two years as the man (1993-94 to 1994-95) Pippen's PER jumped to 23.2 and 22.6 respectively. Who knows what Kobe Bryant's PER would have been from 1999-00 to 2003-04 had he been given the chance to be the man during that time. It likely would have made his career PER look much higher. As well, who knows what LeBron James' career PER would be if he were forced to be a second fiddle during his first six seasons.
A second fiddle traditional shooting guard has one of the top 15 PERs of all time. This is pretty much unheard of. PER is a metric weighted in favor of first option stars and power players and yet Kobe is still in the top 15 all-time career PERs. Despite spending the majority of his career as a second fiddle and having a game that is not really favored by the PER metric, his career PER measure is not that far behind LeBron's.
I do believe that LeBron will eventually go down as the greatest player of all time. But to say he's currently better than Kobe and has already had a better career than Kobe based on a facial analysis of each players PER is just not fair.




















Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
1-19-2009 @ 8:00AM
transinsano said...
Let's also not forget who the best player in the "World" was when it was winning time in the fourth quarter of the Gold Medal game. While LeBron's day has come, and if he continues to perform and adds a few rings to those stats he'll be the G.O.A.T., as recently as last summer, even the King conceded who the best was then. And if stats mean more than in-game situations, let alone the biggest moment in the biggest game of their lives... then why even watch basketball?
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1-19-2009 @ 9:50AM
TRICIA said...
Now that was one of the best analysis that I have heard of Kobe's early career. I've been preaching that for years now. Thank You very much! Finally its in print.
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1-19-2009 @ 11:22AM
drunkenedjesus said...
And because it is in print, that makes it true. Thank you internet.
1-19-2009 @ 2:34PM
David said...
Nate, a couple points -
First, Kobe already had his chance to be "the man" in his prime. He was 27 years old in 05-06 when he averaged 35 PPG. Even then his PER was still only a 28.
So, I'm not sure I buy that Kobe could have put up PERs like LeBron's right now if he were the man his whole career. We've already seen what Kobe looks like as "the man" in his prime, and it's not as good as LeBron.
Secondly, LeBron James is not a big man. He's nothing like a big man, actually. He's a perimeter player who creates for his teammates and scores by taking jumpers and driving to the basket.
So, the argument that PER is somehow not a valid way to compare LeBron and Kobe doesn't make sense.
Those two guys are asked to do the same things for their teams. LeBron just does a better job than Kobe today.
More efficient scorer, much better rebounder, better passer, possibly a better help defender. What more can you ask for?
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1-19-2009 @ 3:12PM
shepardtrent said...
Amen David!
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1-23-2009 @ 1:02PM
Bryan said...
thanks for the great article, Nate
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1-20-2009 @ 7:30AM
FRANK said...
Kobe has a better supporting cast by far,
enter Gasol a superstar on his own right
plus the experience of D. Fisher plus
2 solid young men in Ariza and Bynum plus
one of the better coaches of our era ,plus,
plus what does Lebron have ? big Z which is
injured right now and Delonte ? minus as well
plus......NOT, not the coach please but maybe grandfather Wallace ?? or Mo ??? or Verajao ?
Go figure but NOT the supporting cast that
Kobe has right now.
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1-20-2009 @ 10:11AM
JD said...
the argument about kobes situation in the first 3-4 years of his career compared to Lebron's goes both ways.
Yes kobe went from sub to 6th man to 2nd fiddle but he also played with Shaq, d fisher, karl malone, gary payton, eddie jones when he was still a player and NOW Fisher, Gasol, etc. Oh also Kobe's two coaches have been Phil Jackson and Rudy T. (combined 11 nba titles)
lebrons teammates have included ricky davis, eric snow, kevin ollie, d.miles, larry hughes....and his coaches have been mike brown and paul silas.
so lebron got to be the man and lead his team in assists his FIRST year in the league on a team with d. miles and ricky davis. can you imagine his assist totals and fg% with talent comparable to kobes around him? Not to mention what would happen if he had better coaching around (mike browns done a better job this year but he doesnt compare to phil or rudy)
also, i would argue Lebrons maturity played a factor in getting so many minutes early. Had Kobe not forced a trade to a playoff team upon being drafted he would have been in a more comparable situation to Lebron -- on a losing team with tons of minutes.
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1-20-2009 @ 4:16PM
penguit said...
I don't need stats to tell me who the greatest player in the NBA is. I saw it last night when Kobe outshined Lebron and took it to the Cavs last night.
Give me that butter Kobe jumper, that killer instinct, that FT touch, and did I mention that killer instinct, ANY day of the week. The torch hasn't been passed yet. You gotta wait your turn LBJ, it will come though.
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1-24-2009 @ 5:06AM
knowledge said...
all i keep hearing about are stats, stats, stats. lebron is playing lights out this year true enough. "king" james is a beast without his crown and maybe some day he'll actually win it all. but as of right now, kobe is still the man. put lebron in the western conference and see how well his PER is then. tell me cleveland makes the nba finals coming out of the west. put the lakers and kobe on the moon playing against the monsters of moon mountain (space jams) and they'd still make the finals.
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1-26-2009 @ 2:23AM
jtkik said...
Aside from Nate's great story and points, as well as others, but reiterating one part - Kobe can score from anywhere on the court, and does. LeBron, like Wade, scores more of his points in the paint, and is not the deadly killer Kobe is from outside.
But the thing that really shouldn't be ignored here when talking who's the 'better player' is Defense - and Kobe is easily the better defensive player, and he has a nice string of First Team All-NBA Defensive Team roster spots to show for it. As he did in the last Olympic games as well, Kobe will often personally take the challenge and responsibility of guarding the opponent's best player/scorer. Couple this and the energy it takes to do this with Kobe also having to do his thing offensively, and the only logical conclusion is that Kobe is clearly the better all-around complete player.
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2-05-2009 @ 3:36PM
mjarchitects said...
let's wait for them to meet in the finals to see who really is the better man. Go Kobe!!
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2-14-2009 @ 4:32PM
smoke117 said...
PER definitely has flaws. You put Kobe's and Pippen's Pers together, but what PER doesn't give is really an idea of the defense the player plays. Scottie Pippen is arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time, where as Kobe is a good defender, highly overrated and undeserving of pretty much all but a few of his all defensive nods. Pippen also made players around him better...Kobe never did. He scored more points...thus his per was higher. It's really as simple as that, but could Kobe run a team like Pippen could as a pg? Hell No.
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