Debate in the Paint: No Question MJ Greatest of All Time

Thank you. LBJ who? I hated Jordan and his Bulls with a passion, but still watched every single one of his games. It's repeated often, but put Jordan in the league today with the offense minded rules and he would be even more unstoppable. I don't think Jordan's ability to dominate the entire league will ever be topped.

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Larry Bird??

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*Wow, what a "CLASS" induction class! John Stockton, David Robinson, and the greatest we're likely to see in this lifetime, Michael Jordan. Can you imagine a team starting with those three? What a "dream" that would be--oops, already been done--the ONLY Dream Team, regard-less of what they called the imitators that came after. And now we get three of them being enshrined at the same time! Soak up the moment, people, because except for Tim Duncan and a small handful of others, there aren't any more like these CLASSY warriors.

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Jordan didn`t have a team of all stars, like Russ? What were Bill Cartwright, Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, BJ Armstrong, Toni Kukoc, Scott Pippen? They were all stars, were they on an opposing team to Jordan and his black diamond earring? Did Jordan ever lead the Nba in assists, like Chamberlain? FG %, like Chamberlain? Rebounds, like Chamberlain? He and Chamberlain could both score and defend, but were any rules changes made to cut back his game, as were made against Chamberlain, time and again, because he was too dominant, and so made a mockery of the rest of the league as individuals, even though he only won two championships? Besides, the press have already annointed LeB J as a proven winner, and the best of all time, B O A T, because he`s never won anything, but has twice the earrings, and has also been kissed publicly by his coach. They can`t ALL be the single greatest player of all time. Still, Jordan ranks right up there, with Havlicek, West, Robertson, all of whom had more assists, Stockton, Cousy, and the other great guards (Havlicek was also a great forward). And Jordan not only didn`t score a hundred in a game, like Chamberlain, he didn`t score as much as 81, like Bryant, either. Jordan is tied with Chamberlain in scoring average, but wasn`t nearly as multi dimensional as several others, which ought to matter some. But he was still very good. Most folks would probably pick him to their all time top dozen or more, though Havlicek was the most versatile guard, Robertson`s rebounding stats not being a guard style stat, and his not having been all defense like Havlicek and West and Jordan. And, unfortunately, most folks discount the guys who actually played point guard, like Cousy and Stockton, don`t really consider them among the top guards, though they were.

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Giles. Excellent post. You made your point and I can't disagree with you. The best part was that you did it without tearing Jordan down. Good job.

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Someone should be paying Giles for what he had to say here ! People forget so quickly how good guys like Pippen and Grant were. how good those teams were as apposed to what the rest of the watered down NBA had become. And isn’t Scotty on the all time top 50 like Mike? People forget the league had peaked before MJ started his run as the most “entertaining of all time”. Mike was great but the Greatest? The Best Ever? If you were starting a team and had the whole of NBA history to choose from would he be your first pick? Would you choose him over Hondo, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, Sweet Lou or even the DR in his prime? Dose anyone remember what Greatness is anymore? Top 50 you bet, top 25 no problem best of his generation sure I wont argue. But greatest to ever walk on the court? NO way.

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No one told Jordan he couldn’t dunk anymore. Like they told Wilt. they changed those rules to get Mike to come back not to help defenders keep him under wraps. And if you want to talk rings? Russell needs his toes to wear all his.

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Yes, I put up a spirited counter argument, but I acknowledged Jordan was an excellent ball player, and didn`t get into the "refs let him get away with traveling and hooking, etc." sort of argument. All the supposed great players got away with that sort of thing. Those rules weren`t enforced against Jordan, and should have been, but they weren`t enforced against his rivals, either, and should have been. I got a bit more personal about his circumstances than I would have preferred to have done, but they are part of why he is the media darling he is, unfortunately. And both Chambelain and Jordan, as well as Rick Barry, and others, missed years. Jordan because of the extremely tragic murder of his father tried and failed at minor league baseball, missing a season and a half. Wilt not only missed most of his second season with the Lakers with a knee injury, he was retired by a court decision, the Lakers preventing him working for the San Diego Conquistadors of the Aba. And he played with the Harlem Globtrotters what would have been his senior season at Kansas, because the Nba wouldn`t let him in, and was a 7`1 point guard!, in not exactly totally real competition, where Jordan was allowed early entry into the Nba. Probably little doubt Wilt would have played another 6 or 8 years, like Jabbar and Parish did, if not for the court battle, which would have lowered his scoring average but increased his totals. And as for championships, Russ had nearly twice as many, out championship assisted Jordan, or anyone but Johnson and Cousy, despite sharing the ball with Cous, and, of course, way out rebounded anyone but Wilt in the regular season, and slightly outrebounded even Wilt in playoff and championship competition. Jordan does plenty of consideration, but so do some others, some of whom keep getting short shrift because they weren`t as popular, and in Wilt`s case, because he was tall. Jordan was quick. Maybe as quick as Wilt. No one complains THAT was an unfair advantage, so players not as quick, and almost as good, were really better somehow.

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Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Played TWENTY years. Same number of rings as Jordan, but with two different teams. (Yes, Jordan might have had more had he not been diverted by minor league baseball, but boneheaded choices* are part of what one considers about a player. Jordan's baseball isn't Ted Williams' two stints as a pilot serving his country in two wars.) Abdul-Jabbar's play wasn't nearly as exciting as Jordan's, so Jordan wins the put-fannies-in-the-seats contest hands down. But, allowing for the apples-and-oranges problem of comparing over different eras, Kareem is the BOAT.

* I've always given some credence to the theory that Jordan's diversion to baseball wasn't entirely voluntary. The theory says that Jordan had gambling problems along the lines of Paul Hornung's in the NFL and maybe even Pete Rose's in MLB, but that the NBA simply couldn't suspend its star-of-stars for a year and a half. So it gave him the chance to save face for the league and himself by staying away from basketball for a while. Baseball was a smokescreen.

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Best in the 80's would be pushing it,let alone ever. He was a ball-hog that shot 40 times a game and did not make his team better. Chris Paul along with a few other guards would eat his lunch today. Oscar will always be the best ever until Lebron starts winning a few rings.

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You all seem to forget Magic Johnson. Magic could handle it,score it, pass it and defend your center. He is only title short of Michael but Michael didnt win one his first year in the league playing a position held by the greatest center ever....My vote goes Magic,Bird,and then Jordan

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Jordan is indeed one of the greatest ever and maybe even in the top three. But until he causes a change in the basic rules of the game (the lane was widened to negate the dominance of Wilt Chamberlain), it's hard to say that he "changed" the game. Wilt certainly did.

And also note that, until MJ got a terrifc supporting cast, the Bulls were routinely escorted out of the playoffs, usually by Larry Bird and the Celtics. MJ scored 61 (I think) against the Celts but lost the game.

MJ did not have that kind of opponent in the 1990s (or maybe he just made it look as if there was no opponent there!). But if I need a guy to make the clutch shot, I have a list of five guys to take that shot and MJ is at the top of the list.

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Wilt was as fast as Jordan... I dispute that outright.

Wilt was an athlete WAY before his time, and didn't play "big" bodies every night... I don't argue he would have dominated all of them, but his numbers wouldn't have been nearly what they are.... I liken it to SHAQ when he dominated the league while he was able (through the rules) to knock people off of the blocks and dunk the ball versus after the rules change that he wasn't allowed to make contact (and was actually made to play basketball)where he suffered... Wilt was tremendously advantaged by his size differential (that no longer exists and when it does is negated by rules). He was playing guys 6'8 and 40 pounds lighter. The $$$$$$$ came into basketball and the great athletes followed (all the great NFL tight ends are power forwards in the NBA). So while I do not diminish what Wilt did (and he was a very good defender as well), think your comparisons of physical talent between Wilt and Jordan are not accurate.

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Changing the basic rules doesn't mean very much. Before they added goal tending, if a player had averaged 10 blocks a game by doing this, would you talk about how awesome he was at blocking shots? No.

Do you think if Wilt never played basketball that those rules wouldn't have ever changed? Of course they would.

Also, stat keeping is never 100%. Home teams/players usually get an extra rebound or assist in todays game. How accurate do you think rebounds and assists were counted 30/40 years ago? If you tip the ball up and then get the rebound after that.. is that one rebound or two? If you pass someone the ball and they dribble once and take 2 steps, is that an assist? how about if they dribble 2 times? What if you pass it to someone running down the court for a no contest layup.. but they took 3 dribbles... is that your assist? Who knows what they did back then. Points are the only reliable stat, unless you watch the oldest full game you can find and use todays rules to measure it.

How many times would Wilt have been called for the 3 second rule... if they called him like Yao?

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One more thing.

Do you think Wilt had to face defenses like Jordan did? You really think the talent pool from Wilts era vs Jordan era were the same? The strategies, the coaches, the benches?

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