Debate in the Paint: No Question MJ 'One of the Greatest' of All Time

I disagree with your opinion. Ask Magic or Bird, they'd tell you who's the greatest. If Jordan had the supporting cast he had in the 90's in his 80's run, he would've dominated the league from day 1. Jordan's playoff record 63 pts against Bird's Celtics is a testament to his superiority.

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Hard assignment. Nice try. Not too convincing. Sorry.

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Yeah, Jordan didn't have to play with losers like Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, James Worthy, Kareem, Bill Walton...you know? Hall of Famers.
Magic and Bird won those championships on their own.

Jordan is the best of all time and I say this as a devout Detroit Pistons fan who pretty much hated him through the late 80s and 90s.

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Kareem is the leading scorer ever, to say nothing of his FG %, rebounding, shot blocking, etc. Karl Malone is the second leading scorer ever. Like Kareem and Michael, also an all defensive player. As for honorable mention, in combined Aba/Nba points, Dan Issell and Julius Erving also joined Wilt Chamberlain in scoring over 30,000 points. But if you want to go by championshps, Russ was 3rd in Championship assists, behind Johnson and Cousy, 1st in championship rebounds. His 11 championships in 13 seasons is almost TWICE the number Jordan won. Satch Sanders and Robert Horry and Scottie Pippen have as many Championships as Jordan, and Jim Loscutoff 5, almost as many as Jordan`s 6. Jordan can still be remembered by a lot of folks who can`t remember some of the earlier players, but that doesn`t make him better, only more recent.

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I understand you had the short straw but then dont go saying you "can do it" if this is gonna be your arguement. Oh course Magic and Bird had better team stats... they had MUCH better teams! Jordan did have 2 good defenders in Pippen and Rodman, but Magic and Bird had a ton of talent on both sides of the floor. You use the example of "imagine if Magic played with Jordan's Bulls" - well i say imagine if Jordan had played with Magic's Lakers!! Ha can u imagine what he could do with an All Star center like Kareem, and then Worthy, A.C. Green, and Cooper. Every arguement you made actually makes more sense for Jordan. He was the only great to win multiple rings without an All Star top 10 center....

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Actually, i think the better argument would be this. Wilt Chamberlain had better career numbers and Bill Russell had more rings. End of discussion.

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Sorry- Magic was the greatst EVER. 1. Comes in after his sophomore year (and NCAA championship) Kareem get hurt, plays center in game 6 of the finals , scores 42 points 17 rebounds 7 assists and leads the Lakers to championship..and oh by the way is voted MVP of the finals. Then takes Lakers on a run of 8 finals in 10 years.Michael is mpre athletically gifted but insiders would take Magic to start a team firsthe NATURALLY made everyone else better, Michael had to learn that skill and never perfected it...

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Some folks these days don`t realize how great a team the Celtics
were. Russell is #1 in Championship rebounds, #1 in championship
games played, #3 in championships assists. Cousy is #2 in
championship assists. Sam Jones is #2 in championship games played.
Tom Heinsohn is #5 in championship rebounds and #5 in championship
games played. They were the greatest small ball team in nba history.
The nba should add official championship mvps in `56 to `68. One for
Petit, the year he won, one for Chamberlain, the years he won, then
split the other 10 about equally between Russell, Cousy, Heinsohn,
and Jones. Give the Celtics their just due. Chamberlain won the mvp
in `59 - `60 as a rookie, the had BETTER stats the next three years,
and lost. Why? Compare stats. Russ won with 23.9 rebounds, 2nd to
Chamberlain at 27.2, 16.9 pts., 18th, Chamberlain 38.4, 1st,
Chamberlain also led the association in FG%, Russ wasn`t in the top
ten. Next year, Russ won with 23.6 rebounds, 2n to Chamberlain, 25.7
rebounds, Russ scored 18.9 pts., 17th, Chamberlain 50.4, 1st. second
in FG%, with 50.6, to Walt Ballamy, rookie, with51.9, Bells was also
2nd in scoring, third in rebounds. Next year, Russ won with 23.0
rebounds, 2nd to Wilt, with 24.3, Russ scored 16.8, 19th, while Wilt
scored 44.8, Wilt led the nba in FG% again, 52.8. He wasn`t shooting
enough! In `68-`69, Russ` last year in the nba, Wes Unseld became the
only other rookie to win mvp than Wilt. Wes was 2nd in the nba in
rebounds, 18.2, to Wilt, 21.1, not among the stat leaders in any
other category. Hayes was 4th in rebounds, 17.1, 1st in scoring.
Clearly, Hayes was the real rookie of the year, not Unseld. Wilt had
dropped all the way to 19th in scoring, 20.5 having joined a new team,
the Lakers. First in FG% with 58.3. Not scoring nearly enough.
Clearly, Wilt was the real mvp in `60 - `62, not Russ. The all pro team in `68 - `69 was officially Unseld, Baylor, Cunningham, Robertson, Monroe. It ought to be corrected to Chamberlain, Hayes, Cunningham, Robertson, Monroe. Oscar was the all star game mvp that year, he should probably be corrected to have been the season MVP as well, The false nba
record OUGHT to be corrected. Then folks today will have a better real
understanding of how great the Celtics really were.

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Oscar Robertson was the greatest ever. I think in a few years I'll have to accept Kobe as the greatest. I agree that MJ gets far too much credit for the championships, which is true of all sports discussions.

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At Center

Magic: Kareem
Bird: Robert Parish
Jordan: Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue, Luc Longley
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At PF

Magic: Walton, A.C. Green
Bird: McHale
Jordan: Horace Grant, Rodman
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At SF

Magic: Worthy
Jordan: Pippen
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At SG

Magic: Byron Scott
Bird: Dennis Johnson, Reggie Lewis
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At PG

Bird: Danny Ainge, Brian Shaw
Jordan: BJ Armstrong, Ron Harper
-------------------------------------


Looking at the list, I would say Bird and Magic had better supporting cast, and that's not including the bench.

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Bill Walton was with Bird, it is Lucas Walton who is a Laker now, Bob McAdoo and Jim Chones were among Magic`s power forwards, still pretty good. Some folks argue the Parish/Walton/McHale/Ainge/Johnson, and err, um, what`shisname, were the best team ever, though the Bulls won more games one season. Ainge was mainly a shooting guard, DJ was mainly a point guard, fifth in championship assists. Undoubtedly, Mike Jordan was a great basketball superstar, who made a career of saying, "It`s a pleasure to come in second to Wilt Chamberlain, again", as he did with most of his accomplishments routinely.

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You watch some film of Julius Erving and you'll notice that Michael watched the same film. Some of the magical moves that Michael performed on the court that wowed the basketball world were not original. I think it is impossible to decide who the best of them all was or is. Michael is certainly up there with the elite. For me, no question that Dr. J is on that short list as well. I believe he made a lot of moves on the court that no one had seen before. There was some real original magic with that dude.

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Poorly written. You convinced no one, including yourself. Pippen would have been out of the league after a couple of years without Jordan. Magic had Kareem, although old, but also had a far better supporting cast than Jordan had. Bird had a superior supporting cast as well and besides Philly in the early 80's, the East was perennially weak until the late 80's.

Chamberlain and Russell are worthy of consideration but considering the era they played in I don't see them having the same impact if they played today.

Just leaves MJ as the best all time. No other conclusion to reach.....

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Magic was THE BEST ALL AROUND BASKETBALL EVER. All facets of the game. A 6' 9" guard. Center, forward. Passer, scorer ,rebounder and Leader.

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I guess it would be better to split those 9 (not 10, sorry) MVP awards equally between Russ, Heinie, and Cous, leaving out Sam. I agree that Bill Russell would have difficulty making the same total impact today as when he played. But so much has changed, it is hard to guess. Russ was 6`6 when he entered USF, gained about an inch a year, when usually, a kid stops growing in height about age 16, which is one of the reasons mandatory education in most nations ends at 16. Nutrition, despite the complaints about fast and processed food, tends to be much better now, so Russ would probably have been about 6` 9 1/2 at age 16 in our modern society. Coaching, by tv and in person is better. Partly because of the example Russ set as player and coach. Also partly because of the example Chamberlain set as player. Chances are, Russ would be a better shooter in our modern society. He wasn`t a great scorer/shooter by modern standards, but was among the association leaders in scoring in his time. He would probably not play center. But even in his own era, he had 7`0 Mel Counts for a while, and 6`10, muscular, John Thompson for a while, along side him, though they played out of position at power forward because Russ was better, and was big enough then, though scrawny. He would probably move at least to power forward, which wouldn`t hurt, maybe even further from the basket, which would. He was mainly a rebounder/defender, and not playing one of the posts would undercut his rebounding. But he was third in championship assists, behind Earvin Johnson and his own teammate Bob Cousy, so he might play point forward, power point guard, maybe even pressure point guard today. Wilt and Russ both were very important role models for Earvin Johnson. Magic entered the nba more like Russ offensively, but improved his shooting range, more like Wilt on the perimeter defensively, nowhere near as good on the interior defensively as Wilt, more like a junior grade Wilt off court. It was comedic, not quite competive, but Wilt played point guard with the Harlem Globtrotters, which is part of why he started in the Nba shooting to much from mid range to suit the media, and continued to beat most of his teammates in practice in perimeter shooting contests. He was NOT just a dunker, but coaches liked it better when he finger-rolled (which is basically how George Gervin developed his finger roll, from the free throw line, Wilt got bored merely winning free throw line jumps, and sometimes control tapped the ball in from the free throw line, just out of whimsy) from in close, or dunked. If coaches let Wilt play like he did early in his career, he would have about the same results now as he did then, but would probably enjoy doing it much more, better competition to beat would be less boring, and no dynasty team like Boston was to play against he would win many more championships. Russ wouldn`t get nearly as many championships, Cousy and Heinsohn and others contributed a lot early, and Havlicek contributed a lot late. But it would be fascinating to see guys that good again. With Shaq a former has been, an all star again, but old, there just isn`t much quality bigger in size than LeB J right now, though there is still some, but Duncan is also past his peak, Nowitzski is only good on the perimeter, he has no post game, and Howard is very raw offensively, let`s hope he gets very much better on that end, and stops whining he wants to shoot, if he starts doing it well, coach will encourage him to do it often, otherwise he won`t.

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I dont think Matts trying to say Jordan sucked...merely that he isnt as great as made out to be. And please, did someone really compare Danny Ainge AND Brian Shaw to Ron Harper?

Wow.

Keep conveniently leaving Ho Grant out, who was a bonafide interior rebounder/defender/scorer, with BETTER legs than Parrish OR McHale ever had. Waslton was on his last legs, and just looking to be a part of a championship team, stop acting like it was still '77. Keep understating Rodmans unselfish passing out to Pippen and Jordan while being bar none the best rebounder of the last 30 years. Keep acting like Jordan EVER played more than one position his entire career. Magic played FOUR during title runs, and performed them ALL more than capably. Not only was he a fantastic scorer, hes one of the all time leaders in assists, while ranking as one of the all time rebounders as a point guard. A POINT GUARD.

Showtime ran, lived and breathed through Magic Johnson, without him, they crumbled until the rebuild, MJ took a year off and the Bulls actually went to the Eastern finals, lol. Thats BEFORE Rodman and Harper, btw.

Jordans skill was shoot shoot shoot, and mostly against players shorter and definitely less athletic than he was. he didnt direct plays, didnt pull down ten a night, he stood there waiting for the triangle pass. While his shooting skills are possibly second to none all time, being the best all around player? Hardly.

You can have him, id take Magic Johnson in a draft over MJ any day, and im not even a Laker fan. Just ask Brett.

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I have been waiting for this "debate" forever. Jordan is not one of the ten greatest players ever, let alone the "best". Please do not mention Earvin Johnson in this comparison either. Television made these guys into "superstars",because they are entertainers, not super basketball players. If Earvin Johnson had played for the Clippers , would anybody know his name? If we look at the media driven "superstars" of the last 30 years, who stands out? Larry Canary,Earvin Johnson,and of course Jordan. Mere imposters charading as legends. Because he wins more rings , does not equal greatness. If that is true, then Luc Longley and Bill Wennington were better centers than Wilt. Impressionable and naive "fans" need to understand that being promoted as the best and being the best are not related.

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